Never Split the Difference: CMO Edition

Drew: Hello, Renegade Marketers. If this is your first time listening, welcome. And if you’re a regular listener, welcome back. You’re about to hear a Career Huddle, where Huddlers get exclusive access to the authors of some of the world’s best-selling books. This Huddle featured Chris Voss, a former FBI negotiator who wrote “Never Split the Difference,” one of my favorite business books. I totally fanboyed on this one. Chris is a master negotiator, and he shares how CMOs can turn challenging conversations, like when you’re faced with budget cuts, into collaborative sessions. He shares insights into the power of tactical empathy, calling out emotions, and letting ‘no’ out a little at a time. He talks about how you can adapt your negotiation style to different personality types, which he names assertives, analysts, and accommodators. If you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave a review. You’ll be supporting our quest to be the number one B2B Marketing podcast. Alright, let’s dive in.

Narrator: Welcome to Renegade Marketers Unite, possibly the best weekly podcast for CMOs and everyone else looking for innovative ways to transform their brand, drive demand, and just plain cut through. Proving that B2B does not mean boring to business. Here’s your host and Chief Marketing Renegade, Drew Neisser.

Drew: Hello, Huddlers. Today we are privileged to welcome Chris Voss, a distinguished former FBI hostage negotiator whose expertise has been brilliantly adapted for business leaders worldwide. Chris is the author of “Never Split the Difference.” If you haven’t read that book, I recommend it go top of the pile. I’ve listened to it three times and have actually read it once. It’s really a masterclass on negotiation that I think is a must-read for any business professional. Chris is going to share insights on how artful negotiation can help you marketing leaders secure better deals and forge stronger relationships. Because often we think those are, you know, hard-driving negotiation, you’re going to lose the person in the negotiation. That’s not what we’re talking about here. And as we dive into the principles of tactical empathy, calibrated questions, and mastering the strategic no, you’ll gain invaluable tools to elevate your negotiation process. So with that, hello, Chris. How are you and where are you this fine day?

Chris: Drew, happy to be here. I am great and at my home in Vegas.

Drew: Home in Las Vegas. Awesome. Well, we got folks from all over the US joining us. And I think a good place to start is the title of your book and why we should never split the difference when we’re so trained from youth, hey, you know, compromise. It’s a good thing.

Chris: You know, I was listening to Jeff Bezos interview on Lex Fridman recently, and Bezos said compromise is never about finding the truth. And I thought that captured it really well. If your intention to split the difference is to be fair, that’s a good intention. You’re trying to be collaborative, you’re trying to not take from the other side, trying to be even. First of all, it’s impossible. We as human beings lose things twice as much as an equivalent gain, a Nobel Prize-winning theory from Daniel Kahneman. So you try to split the difference in what you think is fair. Unfortunately, if you gave five and the other side gave five, they’re human on the other side, they feel like they gave 10. And it’s guaranteed being unhappy. It’s why some people refer to negotiations as a good negotiation is if everybody’s a little unhappy. Well, I don’t know about that. I view negotiation as collaboration, as navigation, as long-term relationships, trust. Therefore, you know, I like the analogy to personal relationships. So is a prescription for a personal relationship where everybody’s a little unhappy? I don’t think so. So splitting the difference, compromise is a recipe that guarantees unhappiness.

Drew: So interesting. And so what we then need to get to is this place where you’re happy with a negotiation that you on one side, and somehow or other even if you got more because you didn’t split the difference. The other side is still happy.

Chris: I want to put a pin in that spot right there because you brought up a really important point. So what’s an essential element to making sure the other side feels happy? If they’re involved, if they participate, if they feel ownership in process because first they participated. And one of the problems I have, you know, my Harvard brothers and sisters – I taught at Harvard, I learned from some really brilliant people there. And that idea they’re still holding on to is create a yesable agreement. And look it up, and they still like this. And what’s a yesable agreement? Where you put together such a brilliantly crafted deal, that you did all the research, you did all the work, you laid it on the table, and all they had to do was say, yes, that’s brilliant. Well, if the essential element to happiness is being involved, you cut the other side out completely. You didn’t give them a shot at it. They might agree with everything but they were utterly uninvolved, and they’re never going to be happy with that. So the first prescription for happiness is how involved the other side gets to be in the outcome. Then, the outcome almost becomes secondary if they feel vested in the process.

Drew: So interesting. I’m thinking about that, this sort of Franklin, the show is on right now, and Franklin is there negotiating and his negotiating style is all about what you’re describing, whereas John Adams’ style is, give me the order, give me the money, let’s go right directly at it and get it. There’s some subtlety involved in this process. But what you’re talking about is, it’s not simply about “hey, here it is, deal done,” because you have to bring someone along with it. And I think it’s interesting. Anyway, you mentioned Oprah Winfrey as the greatest negotiator of all time, I thought, let’s talk about that because that’s such an interesting way of looking at her art.

Chris: Yeah, I mean, I could go on forever, right? So let’s start with some metrics. Where did she start from and where is she at? Black female from Chicago, poor, tough childhood, started not at zero, probably from less than zero, no shortage of demographic disadvantages, probably psychological challenges to boot. Where is she now? Like one of the world’s billionaires. Compared to Donald Trump, whether you love him or hate him, Donald Trump didn’t start with the same demographics. His father was a very successful real estate developer in New York City, gave young Donald Trump lots of money. Now, Donald Trump went out, and did some spectacular things. But he didn’t start out as a poor black female that had undergone some variety of abuses as a child, so and I—no matter how much Donald’s worth, I promise you, Oprah’s worth more. So just on the metrics of life, personal success. Now, where has she navigated? Who do you know of that’s got a problem with Oprah Winfrey? Who’s gotten into public spats with her? You got to think really hard to maybe come up with anybody. Now she’s interviewed some of the most volatile, sensitive personalities on planet Earth. None of them seem to have a problem with her. Nobody’s gotten into a rock fight with her, nobody’s throwing shade at her, over the years, pick the volatile, difficult celebrity she’s interviewed. Now, that’s just on the surface. Behind the scenes, since I rave about her so much, I’ve gotten into conversations with people that work for her. And I’ve been given some very accurate conversations where she has taken some of these people to the woodshed. And said, in the beautiful, wonderful Oprah way, it’s my way or the highway. And they chose her way. Now, these volatile people have conversations with her like that. And one of the principal reasons is, there’s never a moment they don’t believe she has tremendous regard for them. In particular, she always ends every conversation with effectively, no matter what you decide, understand that I will always love you and I will always support you, and I will always be behind you. And so these subtle nuances create someone who’s a spectacular success model, and deeply admired by the vast majority of the world.

Drew: Yeah, I mean, I have a good friend of mine, Chris Bohjalian. When she recommended her book it really just changed the trajectory of his career. I was down at I think it was MarieBelle Chocolate, and her recognition of that company transformed the business. So she’s brought a lot of people along with her, which is also amazing.Let’s talk about—I’m going to skip to the end of the book, and then we’ll get into some of the specifics. But at the end of the book, and this was really important, you talk about the need for all of us to get comfortable with conflict. And I just want to understand why is this such an important step on the road to becoming a master negotiator?

Chris: Well, because it’s unavoidable. And so, if you don’t learn that it’s a creator of better things. I mean, it’s a whole attitude towards stress and whether or not stress is growth, whether it’s to be avoided, or whether it can create great outcomes. Now, it can be stressful in a moment if you are completely caught up, like, when is this going to end, when is this going to be over, is this a prescription for the rest of my life? The definition of traumatic stress is it’s unending, and it’s overwhelming. Unending being really what makes it overwhelming. And so you’re looking at stress as something that’s harder. If you can accept that stress creates growth. And that takes a mindset shift, to be able to get there to completely understand it. It’s far easier said than done. One of the Huberman podcasts that I’m listening to right now and I wish I could tell you the name of the guests that he has on is completely about designing and growing from a stress mindset. But conflict is unavoidable. I mean, you could live by yourself in a cave, you’re gonna have arguments with yourself. So you’re going to interact with human beings, it’s unavoidable, let’s see if we can make it part of the process for growth. When I was in the FBI in the crisis negotiation unit, one of those brilliant people on there along with me, Vince Alfonso—Vince might be one of the most brilliant hostage negotiators I’ve ever run across, incredible thinker. He and I used to argue all the time, like all the time, and finally, one of our colleagues got promoted over both of us. And I’m sitting down with my new boss, and he’s like, “Look, I gotta tell you something. You and Vince fighting all the time. I mean, I can’t take it, you just got to cut it out.” I said, “I got news for you. I realize that we fight all the time, but we always create better outcomes. And it’s a better process.” And he looked at me, he says, “You know, that’s exactly what Vince said to me too.” I’m like, okay? The two guys that are fighting are grateful for it and love the product that we create as a result. And it’s stressful for the people on the outside watching it depending upon how they interpret it. So it’s really a matter of interpretation, is it growth? If you can accept that, then you might as well because it’s going to be there.

Drew: It’s such an interesting thing and I want to dwell because I know that more and more the Chief Marketing Officers in our community, the ones that I talked to are feeling more and more stress on the job, they’re getting more and more pressure, they’re often in these situations where sort of impossible demands are being put on them, without them necessarily being able to say, you know, look, this is just crazy. So I want to get a little bit more at this. How do you sort of grow through stress, accept conflict as a good thing? Because the stress doesn’t go away if you don’t have conflict to sort of help it go away? I don’t know, that was kind of a convoluted way of expressing it. But yeah, they’re feeling a lot of stress anyway. And then we’re saying, hey, embrace conflict too.

Chris: Well, you know, actually, there was a lot of really good stuff in there. Let me see if we can unpack different portions of it. So first of all, if there are demands being placed on you that are unreasonable and unrealistic, so there’s a bit of a negotiation. And this is a great negotiation of power of ‘No’. And the fact of getting somebody to say no, how that opens up people’s thinking, how it makes people relax. In particular, I love this approach, when it’s somebody you’re working for. Student in my class at Georgetown, has come to me and in his business, his boss has put some incredible demands on him that are just unfulfilled. He’s got to deal with a client, but it’s a task that’s just overwhelming. And he says, “So how do I handle this negotiation?” I said, “That’s not your negotiation, your negotiation’s with your boss. You gotta go back to the boss and renegotiate what the task is.” And I said to start with your opening line is “Do you want me to fail?” He’s like, “Oh my god, no, I can’t ask that.” I guess so first of all, at any given word, any given interaction, your view and your reaction to the word depending upon which side of it you’re on, is vastly different. And it really starts with yes and no, we love hearing ‘Yes’, we hate saying it. Now, the word ‘No’, we hate hearing it, we love saying it, “No, I’m not doing that.” No is the feeling of protection. To say no makes you feel safe and protected at all times. So saying it versus hearing it, feels very different. So if you want to renegotiate with your boss you want to start out with how to make them not feel like you’re disobeying or disobedient, you’re insubordinate or you won’t follow direction, start to make them feel safe and protected. “Do you want me to fail?” makes them feel safe and protected. In particular, when you’re dealing with someone above you because you want them to open up, you want them to see where you’re coming from, you’re going to dispute what they want, you to do. And you don’t start out disputing it by making them feel rattled. You make them feel safe and in control and saying the word no makes people feel safe and in control. And it was really how to start off with, we got on the switch from giving people permission to say no to actually getting them to say… giving people permission to say no was an idea from Jim Camp and he said, just tell people, it’s alright to say no right away. They preserve the right to veto is what Jim said. And he changed his approach and he said, “Before I sit down with you, I want you to know, you can say no to me at any time. As a salesperson, you say no to me at any time, and I’ll get up and I’ll go.” And he found that he made more deals instead of constantly pushing for ‘Ye’s, giving them the freedom to say ‘No’. So one of my hostage negotiators running a great team in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh, she’s making the whole office look good, by comparison, she’s embarrassing her immediate supervisor. Her immediate supervisor has the ability to remove her from the negotiation team because it’s extracurricular duty, so to speak, she still got case responsibilities. He calls her into his office, she knows that his purpose is to effectively fire her from the negotiation team and focus only on investigations. And she looks at him and she says, “Do you want the FBI to be embarrassed?” Now I’m going to tell you something before I heard this story, I never would have had the courage to say that, never. But instead of this guy blowing up as I imagined he would. he feels safe and in control, kind of leans back in his chair, steeples a little bit, when somebody is somebody’s steepling that means they feel really good about themselves. You feel large and in charge. He leans back and steeples, and goes, “No.” And she followed it up with “What do you want me to do?” Great ‘what’ question. Triggers deep thinking along a lot of lines. Always makes the listener feel in control. People love to be asked what to do. And he leans back and he says, “Look, just don’t let this hostage negotiation stuff interfere with your investigations anymore. Now go back to work.” She walked into the office, his agenda was to remove her from the team. She walked out intact. Started by asking him that dreaded no warning question. “Do you want the FBI to be embarrassed?” Head of Marketing? Tasks you can’t handle? “Do you want me to fail?”

Drew: I would love for the CMOs who are listening just to sort of put in chat whether or not you could get yourself to that point where you think you could say that? I’d love to see that feedback from you. And if not, why not?

I noticed, I have to call you out. And I felt like I was hearing your late-night DJ voice a little bit that you talk about in the book. Can you just talk about and I want to hear it a little bit more. But there’s voices that you talk about using in the book. I want to hear the late-night DJ.

Chris: Drew, I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Drew: There it is. There it is, folks. alright. You talked about ‘no’, getting to ‘no’ which is such an interesting concept and not the way we think about sales. It’s like “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.” You talked about yesable agreement. But one of the things you talk about in the book is that there’s this art of ‘no’ and you’re actually not ever saying no oftentimes in these negotiations. Can you talk about sort of how we can say no without saying no?

Chris: Well, I’m going to borrow a phrase that describes this process from a friend of mine, Ned Colletti, who used to be the GM for the Los Angeles Dodgers. In Ned’s first year as GM, they went from worst to first. What does that mean? In your first year as GM, that means that you put the people on the field that the manager needed to win. You didn’t have time to recruit, you didn’t develop people up in a farm system; you made an instantaneous change in personnel. You gave the manager what he needed. It’s the sign of a good negotiator. A lot of professional sports GMs (general managers) if their teams lose, they are no good at negotiation. You know, are you any good? Does your team win? Just because you’re in that position doesn’t mean you’re any good.

Ned, what did he say? “Let no out a little at a time.” What do I mean by that? I say no, but you’re never shocked by it. I start to warn you in advance that there’s trouble ahead. And I’ll say it a little more firmly every time. I’m going to be careful with my tone of voice. As you’re letting out no a little at a time, it’s definitely time for that late-night FM DJ voice, that soothing, calming voice. Emotions are contagious. Calm is contagious. The soothing, calming voice calms them down and calms you down, especially if you’re getting ready to draw a hard boundary, you’re getting ready to say a hard no. Now, I will say that but I’m going to warn you it’s coming along the way.

How do I start it to begin with? “How am I supposed to do that?” If you’re asking me to do something that I can’t do, what it is, is an implementation issue. I need you to see my perspective. “How am I supposed to do that?” is inviting you, almost forcing you, to take a look at the implementation of my position. It is one of the magic phrases that somewhere between eight and nine times out of 10 instantaneously changes everything. It works so effectively that in the one time in 10 the other side shoots back at you, “I don’t care, you just need to get it done.” Most people are just shocked, that have gotten used to it because it is so instantaneously transformative. So much of the time, the win rate there is very high. And what you want is a high win rate.

Now, what happens if they throw it right back at you that one time in 10? And it’s gonna happen if you do it enough times. Say it again, with different emphasis on different words. “How am I supposed to do that?” “How am I supposed to do that?” You want to continue to force them to look at the situation. Now let’s see, you’ve got to tighten it up a little bit more. “I’m sorry. You’ve been very generous. That just doesn’t work for me.” Now you’re changing the words? Now you’re forcing them to look at it a little harder. Now you’re taking a harder line. A little bit further, and they’re still not getting it. “I’m sorry, no, I can’t do that.” And then finally, “No.” Now you’ve warned them, it’s coming. You’ve got to retain your ability to say no. What I train my people and the people we coach is, don’t let people get caught off guard by no. Let it out a little at a time. Let them know what’s coming. Be prepared then to end with the open rule as needed: “I’m here for you when you want to work things out. I want you to know I will always be on your side to collaborate with you when you want to collaborate with me.” Make sure you end positive. And that way, if you ultimately do have to say no, look, you warned them. They didn’t want to pay any attention. That’s not on you.

Drew: Now, I can see this working really well if an employee comes to you and says, “I want a 50% raise.” You know, I can see the first question, “So how am I supposed to do that?” Let me give you a very specific scenario that’s happening in real time right now. A PE-backed firm goes to the CEO, who then goes to the CMO who says, “We’re cutting your budget by 30%, but your growth goals for the year are 30% increased.” So that’s a huge delta. And if they said, “How am I going to do that?” which I love, because they’re wondering how the hell are they going to do that? And they know there is no answer. The CEO is likely to say, and again, any folks in chat could dispute that, “That’s your job. Figure it out.”

Chris: Alright, so likely, or that’s what your head is telling you. Your amygdala is kicking in. At any given point, you’ve got to run a process because you need a full diagnosis of what’s going on. Now if that’s the answer, you need to go from wondering to knowing. If the CEO has just hit you with that, you’ve gone from wondering to knowing this is a sinking ship. You’ve got to know where you are. Do not kid yourself as to where you are at any given point in time, and running the process is trying to find out whether or not you’re walking the plank on behalf of the CEO. You’re going to be sacrificed. You can’t change it if it’s going to happen. What you can change is how you’re going to adapt in the moment. So you start out with – again, and delivery is always critical. You want your words to land. You’ve got to say it right. You don’t go, “How am I supposed to do that?” as if he’s an idiot. Your tone of voice is, “How am I supposed to do that?” I’m on your side. You’re the boss. And not only are you the boss, you’re smarter than me. Mentor me through this. That’s what you want your tone of voice to say.

If he comes back with, “That’s your problem, figure it out,” what’s he also telling you? Let’s make it a hypothesis. It doesn’t have to be real. He easily could be assured his head’s on a chopping block. There are conditions if there is equity investment in his company. He’s got a board. Dependent upon what his voting shares are, whether or not they have the opportunity to put him out on the street, somebody comes at you that hard and is that inflexible, they are under a massive amount of pressure. They feel like they have no allies.

What’s your next pivot? “I can see you’re under a tremendous amount of pressure.” You could also go with, “It sounds like you’re under a tremendous amount of pressure.” But this is one of those moments where your label of the dynamic that they’re under, the insightful label, “It sounds like you’re under a lot of pressure” to “I can see,” when you really know, when we’re teaching labels, you’re gonna make the shift a little bit more advanced label. And it’s not what I’m hearing is you’re under a lot of pressure. It’s “I can see you’re under a lot of pressure.” You need to begin to navigate this relationship with the CEO. So you find out if there’s any position to collaborate, if there’s any way out, because if the CEO is cutting your budget that much, they’re under that much pressure. And point of fact, the two of you have got to really collaborate together to find that answer. Because everybody’s head’s on a chopping block at this point in time. Yours is first, but he feels like he’s coming out the door right on your heels.

How do you solve that? The two of you got to collaborate, you’ve got to find resources, you’re going to need to refocus resources, reestablish priorities. You ain’t getting there without a full collaboration with the CEO that’s given you that kind of a mandate, you’ve got to understand what kind of negotiation you’re in, what kind of outcomes you could be facing.

Drew: Given that, so we get to “I can see you’re under a lot of pressure.” I’m wondering at that moment, so now, eventually, we’re going to have to get to “How are we going to do that?” Because that’s what you just said – we’ve got to solve this together. Do we get there quickly from that “I can see you’re under a lot of pressure”?

Chris: Quickly is a relative term. As quickly as you can. I mean, you’re 31% smarter in a positive frame of mind. You see us coming at you with that kind of reaction, your CEO is in a negative state of mind. Which means by definition, he’s not thinking as well as he could because he’s in a negative frame of mind. “I see you’re under a lot of pressure,” “I know you’re under a lot of pressure” begins to release the negativity so that he can think better. The challenge here is getting everybody’s mind in a proper mindset to come up with answers. And when you’re in a negative mindset, by definition, you’re dumber.

So you and he have got to find a way to get yourself smarter in the moment. And that avenue is getting out of the negative mindset, for starters, or you ain’t never digging yourself out of that hole. So the first thing is, these negotiation approaches, tactics are designed to get people in a position where they can think better with each other. Now you’re going to want to start kicking ideas back and forth. The CEO’s got ideas that can help you, and you’ve got ideas that can help him. How do you get into this collaborative mindset? The first step is going to be relieving some of the negative mental pressure.

Drew: Some really interesting, subtle things were in what you just last said, because the CMO going into that office may in fact be in their fight or flight mode. They too are feeling the stress and feeling negative about this scenario. Obviously, they’re feeling negative about the scenario. What are the exercises or thoughts because I know you’re talking about breathe and slow—to get yourself in the mindset so that you have the positive frame to begin with, to help sort of bring that CEO along with you?

Chris: Well, how do you coach yourself is a great question. Identifying the labels in the negativity in your head is a big step in the right direction. It’s one of the reasons why we’re constantly telling people to label the negatives, don’t deny them, label them, observe them, verbally recognize, call them out, don’t deny it. Don’t deny the elephant in the room, call out the elephant. Brain science experiments I’ve seen duplicated a couple of different times they put people in fMRIs, big like helmet things where we could track the electrical activity in the brain. How thoughts are banging through the brain. They show these people in an fMRI picture that induces a negative emotion. I don’t know what the pictures are, could have been anything could have been a puppy in the rain, who knows but it induced negative emotion so they watched the brain light up in predictable areas where it’s largely recognized that negative thinking is processed, portions of the amygdala, some of the other crazy names they have for the organs in the brain. And then they simply ask people to call it up. What are you feeling? Self-label, self identify. And by simply stating the negative emotion or feeling or something that sounds like, fear is concern, is anxiety, fear has all these different masks it wears when at the end of the day, it’s just fear. I feel anxious, that’s a version of fear, I feel frustrated, that’s a version of fear. Every time somebody called out the negative emotion, the electrical activity in that portion of their brain diminished. Two important points about that observation, number one, it happened every time. Number two, the degree of impact is what changes. Sometimes you call out a negative emotion and the amount that it’s impacted is almost imperceptible. That didn’t mean it didn’t work. That just means you need more. Sometimes you call out the negative emotion and it hits the nail on the head and it goes deep, and it all goes away. So the degree of impact of calling these out changes. How does this work for somebody who’s scared? When I’m coaching somebody in negotiation, and I could say ask your boss, you want me to fail. And they’ll go, “I can never say that, you know, I can imagine them just blowing up. That would be awful.” And I go “Alright, So repeat after me say I’m scared.” “I’m scared.” “Say it again.” “I’m scared.” “Now say it four times.” “I’m scared. I’m scared. I’m scared.” “Now. How do you feel?” “Yeah, I feel better.”

Drew: This show is brought to you by CMO Huddles, the only marketing community dedicated to B2B greatness, and that donates 1% of revenue to the Global Penguin Society. Why? Well, it turns out that B2B CMOs and penguins have a lot in common. Both are highly curious and remarkable problem solvers. Both prevail in harsh environments by working together with peers, and both are remarkably mediagenic. And just as a group of penguins is called a Huddle, our community of over 300 B2B marketing leaders huddle together to gain confidence, colleagues, and coverage. If you’re a B2B CMO, why not dive into CMO Huddles by registering for our free starter program on CMOhuddles.com? I hope to see you in a Huddle soon.

Drew: I’m thinking about this and as we’re talking about it, part of this answer to this challenge of this specific CEO CMO negotiation is not assuming that you know the emotions that the CEO is feeling. Not assuming you even know what their problem is. And you talk about in the book, you talk about this need for childlike curiosity and that often these super-smart people fail, because they don’t ask the right questions. So I just linked like three different thoughts. But the heart of this is to get into the head of the person that you’re talking to, in order to find out what are their fears? What are they worried about? What do they think is going on? So again, everybody can sort of elevate into a positive place of problem-solving. Is that reasonable?

Chris: Well, you know, different parts of it. I mean, first of all, you can’t know what somebody’s thinking, but emotions are ridiculously easy to read, once you start trying to read them. And context is very strongly indicative. All you got to do is start trying. And yeah, you don’t know their thoughts, but I mean, fear, anxiousness. First of all, circumstances gonna give you a lot of information to start with very quickly. Secondly, when you walk in, you see the look on somebody’s face, and then third, you start calling it out. And it’s amazing how easy once you start looking for the read of the emotion, how quickly you can get really accurate with it. And if you just focus on that, I’ve been in conversations, where the only thing I did was try to call out how the other person was feeling based on their tone of voice, their body language, all this information, massive amount of data. I’ve had people say to me, you’re reading my mind and my internal reaction is I’m just reading your emotions and you feel like I’m reading your mind and to you it feels great. So the emotions are really there staring us right in the face. What we got to do is be willing to call them out and be willing to be corrected if we don’t get it right. And if we’re willing to be corrected, then the process is even more collaborative.

Drew: So calling it out, I think I recall, it seems like you’re anxious about x. Is that part of this process? 

Chris: You don’t even need to put in the about x?

Drew: Okay?

Chris: All you got to do is put, “it seems like you’re anxious, you look troubled, you look upset.” We all get it. I’m listening to quite a number of years ago in the 90s, this gentleman, a phenomenal athlete, and in his world as this big, macho masculine guy, he had an undercurrent of homosexuality, he was attracted to guys and in his world, that was just unacceptable. He’s this big, great athlete, big masculine, macho dude. And finally, he can’t fight his own natural impulses. He’s in a New York City area, he goes into Greenwich Village, and he has an experience with another man. And he just can’t take the judgment, he feels that it’s going to happen as soon as his peers find out. So he tries to commit * and he lives, and he does a tremendous amount of talking about his story afterwards, just laying out his struggle. So then they interview one of his buddies, who was involved in his world, what was going on. And I’m watching the interview with his buddy, and he says, “Well, he looked troubled.” And he looked at him. And he looked distraught. And “My first thought was, Did I cause it? Was it me?” Now, the first observations were all dead on. If he just said to him, You look troubled. And left off worrying about the cause and whether or not he was responsible. What’s my point? My point is we see this, we just don’t know that we should call it out. You don’t know you should just call it out. And how reassuring it could be. I’ll try another example. Number of years ago, while I was still in the FBI, two colleagues are in a tremendous personal dispute with one another. We’re in the same office, I don’t know what’s going on at all. I walked by one’s office I look in and I just see this troubled look on his face. And I go, you okay? You don’t look okay. “Yeah, no, no, no, I’m fine. I’m fine.” A day or two later, another guy, same thing, “You okay?” You know, my tone of voice is not judgmental. It’s concerned. You don’t look okay. And he’s like “No, no, no, I’m okay.” I find out months later that they were in a dispute with each other. Each of them independently said, you know it just really helped that you asked. I didn’t pursue it. What’s my point? My point is, if you just let them know, you could see, don’t worry about its cause. It’s tremendously relieving to the other side to be seen, drop it there, if they don’t invite you. Them not inviting you in, them even rejecting you in the moment, doesn’t mean that they don’t deeply appreciate. It will go a long way to relieve their ability, and give them back the ability to solve their own problems, whether it’s your CEO, whether it’s a colleague, just make the observation. They don’t want to take it any farther than that, it’s fine. You have no idea how much you help them just by seeing.

Drew: It feels like empathy is a big part of this. And if you don’t have empathy, you’re gonna have a problem.

Chris: But I think, you know, empathy is the ability to observe, that’s it. You know, who doesn’t have that ability?

Drew: Interesting. Who doesn’t have the ability to be empathetic?

Chris: Yeah, if it’s just the ability to observe, you don’t have to adopt it. You don’t have to agree with it. You don’t have to reject it, allow it to be completely observation and articulate that observation. I don’t know anybody who doesn’t have that ability.

Drew: In the book, you talk a lot about that you need to understand the person that you’re negotiating with. You put folks into three buckets and I’m just thinking again, when thinking for the CMO, who’s negotiating with a first-time CEO who is a genius at coding but doesn’t know the first thing about running a business feels like they are always the smartest person in the room. Can we talk about strategies for handling some of these folks?Chris: Well, there are three types, assertives, analysts, acomadators: fight, flight, or make friends. And it’s the Black Swan groups. It’s my personal opinion that the world splits up evenly into thirds. This is a derivation from the Thomas-Kilmann Conflict Mode Instrument. The first few times I saw was when I was, training, teaching, learning the Harvard… all the above. They put everybody through the TKI, puts people into five types, they knock two of the types out, you’re left with three that are very close to the three that I just mentioned. We have adapted and derived that instrument because we think it needed, you know, our practice, our application. We’ve taken that, we’ve derived from it, tested tens of thousands of people globally. And our anecdotal data is the world splits up into thirds, some groups are going to lean a little more towards one type. But basically, the world splits up pretty evenly.

Drew: Could you repeat the three groups for a second?

Chris: Assertive, analyst, accommodator. Fight, flight, make friends. The assertive loves to take things head-on. Flight, the analysts… conflict is one outcome no different from getting the heck out of it. They find conflict to be highly inefficient and ineffective and would prefer to find another route and avoid the conflict. Analytical… TKI calls them avoiders. We feel that analytical is a far more accurate term. Avoidance is an option as opposed to the option. Their option is based on a lot more analysis. Third type, accommodator, make friends… mostly happy, bubbly people, principally hope-based. The real thing that really drives the accomadator is hope. And it’s my contention that’s why in the business world, the phrase “hope is not a strategy” is so common because if a third of us are driven, almost entirely, if not dominatingly by hope, the other two types are so tired of it. They’re like, “Hope, is not a strategy?” A lot of the people in my company are analysts, we got a couple of accommodators. And each one interprets conflict differently and subtleties very differently. What’s the most obvious interpretation is different. The analysts love silence. They love to think in a moment of silence. They actually feel much closer to the person they’re sharing the moment of silence with. Silence to them feels like intimacy, they love it. Accommodators hate silence. The meanest thing they could possibly do is give someone the silent treatment because it cut them off from communication. They cut them off from their positive upbeat attitude. An accommodators signals fury by silence. Now, with an analyst and an accommodator in the room at a moment of silence, imagine what’s going on in their head simultaneously. The accommodators thinking, “Oh my God, he’s furious. He’s furious. I gotta talk. I gotta break the ice.” And the analyst is going, “Oh my God, I wish he’d shut up. I just need a moment to think, I felt great when we were quiet.” So these are the funny things that will happen between the three types.

Drew: Let’s focus on the first type for a second, the assertive. I’m the CMO, I lean probably analytical, probably somewhere, you know, again, there’s all three types for CMOs. Let’s say for the moment we’ve got an accommodator CMO and an assertive CEO we need to negotiate. What is it that the CMO, the accommodator, needs to be aware of about the assertive CEO?

Chris: Accommodators tend to sort of hold on to stress and it builds and it builds and it builds until finally they reach the point where they can’t take it anymore. And they just… just blow up and meltdown because the stress has been accumulating, accumulating. They made the first mistake is projection bias. They’re thinking other people think and react the way that they do. Now the assertives blow off the stress as fast as they take it on. They’re a little like Wolverine. You know, they’re gonna… they heal up real fast. You get into a furious knockdown, drag-out name-calling, personally insulting argument with an assertive in the afternoon and he or she is going to be ready to go drinking with you that night or play golf together the next day. Forget everything happened. And it’s mystifying to the accommodator, they can’t believe people get over that so quickly. I mean, the next day, the accommodator is still feeling horrible from the conversation the assertive hasn’t even remembered. So when there’s conflict between the two of them, the accommodator’s thinking, “Well, that was horrible for the assertive” and the assertive is like, “Yeah, but I’ll get over it, you know, I’ll be fine in a minute. Why don’t you get over it?” And the assertive doesn’t imagine that the accommodator can’t get over it. “I got over this. You know, that was five minutes ago, I’m fine. What’s the matter with you?” And the accommodator’s still stinging from the argument they had a week ago. So the residue of the conflict is a really big difference between those two types.

Drew: It’s so interesting. I can’t tell you how many articles and posts I’ve been reading lately from CMOs saying, “I can’t take the stress anymore. That’s it, I’m not going to do this anymore, I’m going to find a different job.” And, in fact, if they were perhaps more self-aware that they were sort of absorbing all this stress and had some strategies, at least. So I’m not saying that these aren’t difficult situations right now, there are a lot of really difficult situations out there. But clearly, self-awareness and stress management and deflection and just understanding it would help a little bit.

Chris: Agree completely. And there are a variety of ways to do it. And first of all, you got to study. Like if, if you think that learning by doing is the only way to learn, you’re learning real slow. How’s your self-maintenance? How do you study? I mean, what’s your social media echo chamber? My social media echo chamber on Instagram was positive thinking. I’m picking stuff up in a variety of ways at all times, when I go through the posts that come up in my Instagram echo chamber. Positive thinking, entrepreneurial, can-do attitudes, because I need that feeding back to me on a regular basis. So when you’re undergoing stress, you need that time, you need some self-maintenance, you need your mental hygiene, everybody does. Ignore it at your peril.

Drew: It’s so interesting, you talked about studying and this is, negotiations many times are these spontaneous moments. But in the book, you talk about preparing for these spontaneous moments. If you were to give a quick curriculum of study or some habits, because these are kind of new habits for the CMOs in our audience, both here today and on the podcast, what would be some things that they could do to study to improve their ability to sort of manage the stress and negotiate with our assertive CEOs?

Chris: Well, stop asking people how they’re doing. Instead, observe how they’re doing. That’s going to keep your ability to pick up emotions, it’s going to get really high, it’s gonna keep you mentally agile in a moment. We also need to be in the moment. You see somebody and instead of saying, “How are you today?” say, “It looks like you’re having a good day.” “Looks like you’re having a tough day.” “Looks like you got a lot on your mind.” “You look distracted.” That’s a great way to keep your emotional intelligence high. Practice, get small-stakes practice for high-stakes results. It also has a tendency to keep you in a moment. It also helps people, everybody that you do that to is going to feel seen. And it’s going to help them navigate their day. Now, if somebody’s having a bad day, and you go, “How are you doing today?” you look oblivious, they don’t feel seen. Somebody’s having a bad day and you go like, “Looks like it’s a tough day,” they’re going to appreciate being seen. And you will have called out that negative emotion which is going to step them in the direction of deactivate, making them feel better. So there’s going to be a couple nice takeaways there, you’re getting great practice. And you’re also keeping yourself prepared in a moment when that spontaneous negotiation with the CEO pops up. And you may need to make an observation about the dynamic that’s going to help them think and put them back on your side instead of them feeling like they’re out on an island all out there by themselves.

Drew: The, “Looks like you’re having a bad day.” You tell a great story in the book about one of your students who is at the airline counter. And it’s all crazy. And you know, everybody’s getting bumped off of flights and a woman had yelled at the person at the desk for a while and your student goes up and says, “Looks like you’re having a bad day,” and it changed everything.

Chris: Yeah, you gotta love following somebody who’s just beaten up the airline personnel person. They’re so ready for any sort of appreciation or recognition, and the amount of power they have in that keyboard is incredible. If somebody has just beat up that person, they’re ready for somebody like you who’s going to show them a little bit of empathy and understanding, and they’re going to love it.

Drew: The empathy part of this is a through-line throughout. I mean, asking “Hey, how’s it going?” is not empathetic, but asking “How’s your day going?” or “Looks like you’re having a great day” is far more empathetic. And so what we’re trying to do in all of this is up the empathy so that you can start to have a better conversation with someone.

Chris: Exactly. You know, you’re in a better place, and they’re in a better place, you can be doing it just for skill building, and you leave both of you better off. It’s a way to consistently leave people better than you found them.

Drew: I have to ask, are you still seeking the Chris discount?

Chris: You know, I do ask for that occasionally. But, you know, what I really value much more these days is great implementation. So when I negotiate with people, you’re gonna get your price. And I’m gonna make sure you keep every promise you make because all the promises that you made of over delivery if you keep those promises, your price was a good deal. And you’re more likely to keep those promises if you get your price. So I love implementation, I love over-delivery. And really, the first step towards that is, if I make you discount, which I can, I can get less off. But you’re going to start out feeling anxious, and I don’t need that for over-delivery. So I’m all about delivery these days.

Drew: Interesting. So in the book, just for folks who are listening, Chris tells the story of going into a retail store and saying, “Hey, you got the Chris discount?” and ends up getting 10% off. But I think the point that you’re making is so interesting, which is it’s not about the price necessarily as much as it is what do you get for that? Although my next question is: Do you still have the red truck?

Chris: I do. Yes. I love that thing. It’s also red pearl.

Drew: I love it. Alright. Well, we’re running out of time. Maybe you could give the CMOs in this group, sort of two do’s and a don’t when it comes to negotiating.

Chris: Alright, yeah, and then before we do that, I’m gonna throw out like, if any of you want to follow up more with the Black Swan Group. First of all, the book and the MasterClass are great components, both of which are extremely economical. MasterClass is a great deal; it’s just insane. And the feedback that I’ve gotten on how MasterClass brings together concepts of the books if you want to pursue more self-study. Now, if you want training or coaching, folks, the step through that gateway is really subscribing to our newsletter, “The Edge.” The website is blackswanltd.com. You get a chance to sign up for the newsletter right away. Subscribe, it’s an email actionable, complimentary, usable advice that comes in on Tuesday morning. So also the gateway to everything else we do. We’ve got so many different packages, ways of helping you get better, that can be tailored to you. We’ve got individual coaching, we got group coaching, we’ve got training, we’ve got a lot of stuff, but the starting point to find out what works for you is really through subscribing to “The Edge.” So if you want more, only if you want more, that’s a good starting point: subscribe to “The Edge.”

Now, the two dos and a don’t. It’s not just enough to hear somebody, you got to make them feel heard. So listen carefully and try to paraphrase, summarize, feed back what you heard. They start to feel involved. They feel seen, they feel recognized, it triggers some neurochemicals, all that works to your advantage. Use a great tone of voice, make people feel heard. Use the inquiring tone of voice: “Seems like you’ve really been struggling with this?” Notice when I said that, I also… somebody pointed out to me I have a tendency to turn my head. When I throw my voice up, you can maneuver your head slightly. Slight head tilts, change your inflection. Females who want to use the late-night FM DJ voice, all you’ve got to do is drop your chin. It’s all about downward inflection, male or female. Females tend to struggle with this a little bit more. I am a guy with the great deep voice like you and Andrew Huberman. You don’t need a deep voice; you just need to drop the chin. It gives you a downward inflection. Turn your head to the side for the inquisitive question; it makes your voice land well.

Now, don’t start out with what you have to say. The other side’s burning with what they have to say; they actually can’t listen to you until they feel heard. So it’s just a sequencing issue, whatever you got to lay on them and there are things you have to tell people. It takes less time to do something right than it takes to do it over. Once they feel heard, they can listen to you. If you want to not take the time to make them feel heard, and you just want to give them direction and instruction, you’re probably gonna have to give it to them 19 times. I’m not kidding. So it seems to be a highly inefficient process of hearing them out before you tell them what you got to tell them. It will actually keep you out of the deja vu of having to repeat yourself over and over and over, possibly up to 19 times before you get it to them. So don’t go first.

Drew: They can’t listen to you unless they feel heard. Well, boy, I want to listen to you more, Chris, that’s for sure. So grateful for the time that you spent with us. Again, Chris has already provided all his information; the company is called Black Swan Limited. I can’t get enough. I’ve probably heard you on five or six different other podcasts. So appreciate you being here and all you’re doing to help us sort of absorb, manage conflict, and ultimately achieve what it is that we need to achieve. And I don’t think you can do that without understanding negotiation, accepting conflict, being empathetic, and just listening a little bit better. So thank you so much, Chris.

Chris: It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me in with everybody today.

Drew: If you’re a B2B CMO, and you want to hear more conversations like this one, find out if you qualify to join our community of sharing, caring, and daring CMOs at CMOhuddles.com.

Show Credits

Renegade Marketers Unite is written and directed by Drew Neisser. Hey, that’s me. This show is produced by Melissa Caffrey, Laura Parkyn, and Ishar Cuevas. The music is by the amazing Burns Twins and the intro VoiceOver is Linda Cornelius. To find the transcripts of all episodes, suggest future guests, and learn more about CMO Huddles or my CMO coaching service, please visit renegademarketing.com. I’m your host Drew Neisser. Until next time, keep those renegade marketing caps on and strong!